Moved from the SandBox ....

Loran's material on various topics to be dispatched somewhere else when accepted within the game...

Unfinished work!

Carmanian Hum'akt's Cult (HQ)

Now here: CarmanianHumakt

About Humakt Aspects

General aspects, symbolism, and IRL analogies

This work is intended to introduce nice and simple local variations to the monomyth. It makes Hum'akt, as different and weird as are the manirian Humakt, the ralian Humath, the western Saint Humact or the Sorcerer Humct for the brithini...

So, it is stated as a reality for this campaign too ?
As a general tendency rather than an absolute rule, yes. Unless anyone has any objections?

A very interesting speculation:
Summary: Umath = Humath.
Personally I don't see a meaningful difference between "Umath changed his name and became less powerful, retaining his Separation and Violent Storm powers" and "Humath, son of Umath, inherited his father's Separation and Violent Storm powers when his father died".

Quite common facts:
Umath (the primal storm) had at least five sons, with Orlanth being the youngest and among them Humakt.
Humakt severed his relationship with the storm after the theft of his sword (death rune by Eurmal/Orlanth)
All sources agree, I think, that he severed his relationship with his family. The reasons given differ depending on viewpoint, but "after the theft of his sword" is a common theme.

About IRL analogy
There is analogies with Odin (two ravens, two wolves).

I would have aligned Humakt more with Tyr for the Scandinavian area and Mars/Ares for Mediterranean area.
Tyr is the god of Justice, keeping his word even at the cost of his maimed (severed?) hand in the mouth of Fenris the Wolf (wolf again).
Mars is the god of War opposed as Venus (Uleria?) for romans.

About Humct
For Brithini and after, Humct was a western sorcerer who lusted for more power than even his fearsome magics could provide. He attempted to understand and master the ways of Death. His trial-and-error experiments killed hundreds of victims, and Humct was eventually driven from the western lands. The name Humct is now synonymous with the meaninglessness of a wasted life. Priests frighten initiates into obedience by telling them that Humct will carry them into a death of oblivion if they stray from Malkion's word. Humct is worshiped only by outcasts and evildoers.
He is illustrated as a gaunt old man, unkempt beard flowing to his belly, dressed in a ragged robe. He is wall-eyed, dirty, and open sores splotch his face and hands.

From Peter Metcalph's ideas on Fonrit (even if I don't like the weird muslim taste it has), I used in my own games the Black Surgeons of Humct as sorcerers able to sever all symbolic organs save brain, creating people with enhanced capacities (eunuch with double damage, heartless leader without pity...). I didn't succeed to define all possible operations but my eunuchs were mysterious and fearfull enough for my players (and we weren't playing directly in Fonrit).
Peter's work here:
But we are far from our needs.

About Humath
Humath the War Wind as it is still worshiped in Ralios
Allied Spirits in: Ravens
Yes - thanks for the link. Some source give the god's name as "Humakt" even this early.

About Humakt
Barbarians from Dragon Pass and Maniria worship Humakt still somehow in the Storm Pantheon
There is a myth in which Humakt "resheathes", becoming Orlanth's warleader and under his command, but not his kin. This is how a lot of Humakti in Orlanthi society exist: within a clan, sworn to the chief.
Allied Spirits in: Swords (usually)

About Hum'akt
Carmanians, like Abul, worship Hum'act, the death god totally deconnected from the Storm Pantheon (fully severed?).
Yes, the Carmanian Hum'act seems to be pure Death/Battle. I don't know if he lost his Storm, or never had it - open to ideas.

I'm literally questing for clear evidences of the storm pantheon in the carmanain pantheon, but it isn't obvious.
=> Nick Brooke said that the Lightbringers' Quest was integrated long after Karmanos's revelations.
=> Bisos is a local Bull god, but not so clearly Urox the Storm-Bull and I didn't find any "windy" aspect in Bisos

If any links were existing it seems to me pretty sure that lunarized Carmanians who currently hold the power would have erased or expulsed these disturbing gods from their pantheon. It appears to me that the carmaian religion seems quite adaptable with the definition of evil/good depending of the needs of the society and should have somehow probably opened the way for the lunar cults' agility where the local background was quite stagnant (think 100.000 years of Dara Happan traditions...)
My current idea is that Hum'akt is pure Death, the god that Arkat brought in the area after having cut the link with the Air rune.

Interesting links

Allied Spirits in: Swords (but Telmenos get them in Wolves)

My current theory on a Carmanian Hum'akt:
Now here: CarmanianHumakt

Somehow the idea existed before:

About Saint Humact
I suspect Saint Humact to come long after Arkat as a long-term consequence of his quests, having been the first to merge theistic worship and western faith, which gives for example the henotheistic church in Ralios in the third Age.
Saint Humact could also come from a legacy of the Godlearners as they studied the pagan gods more and more, some of them finished to sincerely convert to the pagan entity their were studying. Anyway Ralios is the Border between barbarian worship and western faith.

We also have this strange Aeolian church in Maniria (see HQ rulebook), pacific malkionized version of the storm pantheon WHICH DOES NOT HAVE a penalty for misapplied worship because we're not messing about with anything so silly.

About Humakt Chaosbringer
My own invention from various readings and sick hypothesis, beware illumination ahead

Humakt Chaosbringer as it could be taught by Ralzakark the Broo Sword

Sky was pure but Earth was fertile so Sky mated once with Earth to create wonders of life on the surface world.
Their son was Umath the Storm, from his father he get the will of Domination and from her mother he get her lustful desire of fertility. At first glance, Umath desired his mother to impose his will on the world, thus he raped her.
She sired him a son, but the son was twisted and mad from consanguinity. His name was Vadrus, and he had a numerous descent of various evil gods like Gargath, Valind and other ones who were killed for their violent madness.

Umath mated then with every possible female around. For example, he took a cow and get a son named Urox, he took a moutain and get a son called Orlanth... But Sky finaly understood why Earth was resting away from him and he saw more and more disorder created by his son. A great anger shook him and his send his Shanasse againts the enemies of Order, this was the Gods' war. To cleanse his defiled honor, Sky rejected her wife and looked after his own son to punish him.
But if violent, Umath was also a coward, he looked for a solution to escape his father's anger and then followed Trickster's advice to go to Hell to discover Death.

With Death, he amputated himself from his intemperance for sex, becoming two new parts of himself. The barren part, still holding Death, was Humakt and the fertile part was Ragnalar, Humakt's brother.
Humakt still fearing his father's anger wanted to get rid of that threat, but now with a clearer mind he quested to understand his vain existence. Humakt met Rashoran and he was taught on the full nature of the Universe. He understood that his former existence and acts were just the result of Sky mating with Earth perturbing the fragile harmony of the Cosmos Bulble in vast sea of the Predark. From the teachings of his mentor, Humakt decided to recreate the world.

Humakt locked himself in more and more self-defined honorable acts, repressing his past and trying to save his destiny by a purer form of existence, by the way getting the powers that self-discipline gives to those who try to master it while his half, his brother Ragnalar roamed freely without any restraint. We, educated broos of Dorastor, we know how he met Thed, mother of the Brookin, at this time one respectable people among the other hunshen peoples and how he mated with her by force... but this is an other story.

During this time, the more Humakt was purifying himself, the more mischief was appearing in the World, Umath's sons were destroying the world's Order by greed, vanity and thrist for power while Sky was desesperatly trying to conserve a doomed and lost universal order. When his half-son, half-brother Orlanth came to him to get access to Death, Humakt understood his demand as the possibility to break definitively the old order and let Orlanth kill the Sky. When the Unholy Trio opened the sacred seal to the Great Outside, he offered his service to the Devil to sweep the remainings spared by the gods'war.

Humakt killed everyone, even the Devil and when all the gods were gathered in Hell, he casted his great spell creating a new world, where ignorant chaotic broos were trapped. Made from the flaws of the old universe, this new world couldn't be perfect, so Rashoran rebornt here in Dorastor and taught the broos to accept their condition of Lifebringers, while his Disciple Humakt sent Arkat the Destroyer to cleanse all the old wastes of the past.

From their effort, our kingdom was created, made strong by the resources of the Great Outside guided by Humakt's teachings of self-discipline. We, humakti broos of Dorastor, have the holy mission to guide the world to his final perfect stage by supporting Humakt cleansing work.

In this cult, it would be logical to have castrated humakti broos... perhaps as a gea/gift possibility.
Having severed their pulsions, they can be then trained to sublimate their sexual energy to become better killers... from chaotic Lifegivers leading to a certain death to illuminated deathdealers leading to better life?

An interesting alternate vision of Humakt and Chaos could be this one (thank Jane)
Where Humakt's final mask might be Kajaboor!

About Humakti Heroes (sometimes worshipped as such):
Name Aspect Origin Humath Humakt Hum'akt
Efrodar Blackhands Humakti Battalions Leaders Gabji Wars Yes Yes Yes
Hiia Swordsman Feathered Horse-Queen Guards Grazelands 1360 No Yes No
Hu the Sword Sword Masters Gods War? Yes Yes Yes
Indrodar Greydog Lismelder Undead Hunters Upland Marsh No Yes No
Inginew Redson Sword Crafters Gods War Yes Yes Yes
Kargan the Warrior Weapon Masters Gods War? Yes Yes Yes
Li Phanquann Undead Fighters Imperial Age Yes Yes Yes
Makla Mann Loyal Humakti King of Otkorion during Gabji Wars Yes Yes Yes
Rigsdal Night Watchmen Gods War Yes Yes No
Yan Starcere Defenders Maniria to Tarsh at Dawn Age No Yes No
Harstakus ? Dawn Age Hero who killed ten village to stop a deadly plague to which he finally succumbed ? ? ?
Jononrol ? Imperial Age Hero who killed the citizen of three town because everyone fered him ? ? ?
Arkat Humaktson Unbreakable Sword Bearer Gbaji Wars Various separate HeroCults ? No
Jalmar (1) Discerning Gabji Wars ? Yes ?
Hereward (1) Truth Seekers Gbaji Wars Hereward the man worshipped Humath Yes Separate HeroCult
Polarch (2) Darkness Wanderers Carmania Imperial Age No No Yes
YYY (2) Raven Trainers Eastern Wilds in Ralios Yes No No
Tel'menas (2) Wolf-Mercenaries Carmania pré-Imperial Age No No Yes
Survilstar (3) Dragon-killers Carmania Dragon wars No No Yes

(1) Inventions used in the story
(2) Proposal from me to customize non-heortian humakti cults
(3) Not fully my invention but put there for the same reason than (2)

About Arkat's fellowship

About Arkat
Arkat used the fact to change the nature of Humath in Humakt (and was then in conflict with Hereward)
This is what actually happened in this version of Glorantha - others disagree. It was once better known: it was recently rediscovered, by the PCs, in Graylor's initiation quest. It seems possible to me that Illig knew, or guessed.
Orlanthi, in general, will probably deny the idea that Arkat changed the nature of Humakt, because the idea of changing gods by hero-questing is unthinkable and WRONG.
Incidentally, you do realise how Arkat learnt to edit gods, don't you? Hereward taught him :)

Efrodar Blackhands

About Makla Mann
Hereward's opposite in that Makla Mann teaches that loyalty to a leader is the most important way of showing honour.

About Jalmar
Jalmar was also a companion of Arkat, but Abul doesn't know anything about his specific sub-cult and secret duty.
Correct. He knew nothing before, he knows very little now.

Let's say Jalmar was just a member of Arkat's Ring as was Makla Mann and Hereward, final point. Some Humakti revere him for some obscure philosophical reasons, that why there is a statue of Jarmal in a secret temple in Old Pavis
with some fanatics wanting to get it back (plus the great treasures accumulated here)
Abul was present and involved during this episode, I need to define his own position in the corpus of esoteric knowledge here.

So yes Abul knows of the Jalmari and is oath bound not to tell. They are illiminant hunters and fighters against the hidden aspects of chaos. That is now known to all that were present in the temple. I'm fairly sure that Graylor
hasn't said any more on the matter except perhaps to Dori who no doubt quized him rather heavily!!!

About Hereward/Herw'Ard
The lost power of the North Wind was somehow recovered by Hereward
As I see it (and as demoed in Graylor's initiation), Hereward worshipped Humath, and never changed. He quested for a specific wind, the Truewind, but did not need to "recover" the North Wind, because he never lost it.
The idea that he "recovered" it may well be "what everyone knows", though.

It's a recurring pattern between Hereward and Arkat: Hereward could not forgive that Arkat did X, but what he most could not forgive was that he himself had taught him how.
I think it gets hinted at in the bit about Graylor's initiation. Hereward severs a relationship between himself and Arkat, and Arkat hadn't seen that done before. He then uses the trick to sever Humath from the Wind. Not quite the same, I know, but linked.

Ah, yes, another thing we "decided" about Hereward and Jalmar...
You know when Arkat killed Gbaji, he used his sword, Godcleaver, right?
Only this was after he'd become a troll, and stopped using a sword. He used a mace instead. So whoever hit Gbaji with a sword wasn't Arkat, it was one of his followers, the one who now had his sword. Hereward...
Let's take that idea a little further. Who did get killed, Gbaji or Arkat or Nysalor? Well, the one of Arkat's followers who was good at telling Illuminated from non-Illuminated, and spotting deeply hidden Chaos, was Jalmar: who wasn't there for the last battle.. One hopes Hereward knows who he killed. One hopes he got it right.

Question: What is the nature of the carmanian hero Herw'Ard ? His position in the dualistic carmanian pantheon? (Normaly this should be clear with Jamal's teachings)
I am open to ideas. The emphasis should be on the Truewind, and Hereward the man, not on Humakt.

Yep, we need a carmanian story, with discrepancies with the manirian Hereward (probably both right and wrong for the interest of the game).
An idea to begin with is the travel done by Hereward to the North. Depending on where Hereward departed, pelandan thus future carmanian lands could have been on the way on or back, if some event/stations ignored in manirian mythology but central to the carmanian one.
Some versions of the story have him spending ten years navel-gazing. He can use any route you like, but probably not a straight line.

Perhaps Jamal who hadn't access anymore to the Vizirs (the ones who determine where is Lie and where is Truth within the Carmanian dual pantheon), uses Herw'Ard to guide him and to have his own vision on Evil/Good?
I like that! He would find this considerably easier to justify if we could somehow "prove" that Hereward is/was a Vizir. What are the qualifications for the job?

But Herw'Ard came in the area at the end of the first age... left tracks, memories and myths, then came the carmanians during the second age fleeing the godlearners and funding a new civilization by merging pragmatically their western hrestoli faith with local customs (mostly dara-happan and pelendan).
Could Herw'Ard have something to do with the prophet carmanos, founder of the Carmanian pantheon?
His teachings on truth being somehow part of the teaching the prophet received?(Truth is everywhere but hard to discern, Truth must be the quest of a guiding elite like the vizirs...?)

For example, he may have visited the Goddess Charmain in the Blue Castle on the Oronin Lake.
He came, passed some heroic tests, was admitted at the castle, discussed there get some information and left some teachings about Truth and Leadership and then went away.
But his teachings were recognized and included later in Carmanos' education...

There seems to be a recurring theme in our quests of meeting some mysterious little old man in a desert who asks mysterious questions. So far I've been assuming that was one of Hereward's teachers. I don't know if that could be linked in?

If Hum'akt was Idovanus's tool, made to slice between Good and Evil, perhaps Herw'Ard can be the ""Air movement" following the falling of the blade, which indicates where the blade has passed, thus indirectly indicating where lays Good and where lays Evil? (we can thus have a "wind" without any storm aspect...)
Nice! The "Weigh Truth ritual" fits this well.
This would make Herw'Ard an acceptable carmanian heros... I think Herw'Ard should have to be acceptable (I mean non aligned on Ganetesarus) for the carmanians, because I don't feel that Jamal would have followed a dishonorable cult an because Her'w'Ard is linked to Hum'Akt who is highly honorable by carmanian standards, and we probably need coherence here).
He might have followed one that he felt was honorable, even if the Carmanians did not, but having Hereward "acceptable" makes life easier.
Hereward as a Humakti sub-cult is known to take honor to insane extremes by Humakti standards.

Others thoughs about the carmanian Herw'Ard:
Could the hero and the goddess Charmain had exchanged truths on right leadership and the vanity of the Light vs Darkness duel from him (easy to admit for her if she is linked to the water element) against mental appeasement recipes (after all we can give her an arthurian style like the fay-under-the- lac, water is also purification, think Nelat's bath) ?

Charmain could be the result of the fight between Turos/Lodril and sweet sea invading water gods, an immortal being trapped in Castle Blue renown for her wisdom and healing arts.
Hereward, looking for appeasement, quested for Castle Blue, found it, proved himself worthy to pass the tests to enter, met Chairmain, exchanged knowledge that will be among the basic principles taught later to the shah-prophet Karmanos and went out in better shape, able of do some worthy heroic exploits that will support his local heroic cult already blessed by Charmain's court.
I think this exploits would be linked on the "Wind after the Blade of Hum'Akt" to discern truth... preparing the way for the future carmanian magi.

1. an analogic flash that stroke me as I woke up this morning.
Truth Wind + Blowing Wind => Truth Blower => Whistleblower
(this link is quite interesting on how could Herw'Ardi be perceived in modern Carmania)

That could be a good reason for the continued existence of Her'w'Ard's Cult in the modern Carmania...
Followers of this Hero could be loners ready to put themself in danger against the society to denounce Ganesatarus's Lies.
If sometime the official Magi of Idovanus confirm the facts and take action, Herw'Ardi could then be seen as necessary troublemakers, not very appreciated by people of power (karmanoi) who are certainly in a position to take some compromises with the carmanian law, but probably supported by intellectuals (like vizirs) using the cult as a lever to counter-balance excess from powerful rulers against oppressed people, this with the general goal to maintain social cohesion.

Jamal would fit perfectly in this vision. Seeing the lunar intrusion in the carmanian tradition as a Lie, he could have joined Herw'Ard herocult to find evidences...

2. this sounds really martyr-like and send my mind to another analogic bang
Herewardi = Martyrs => Karmanos = Prophet => John the Baptist & Jesus

Ok let's be really careful with this one, because Carmania's Gestalt it far from being christian, but I see interesting potential there.
- Hereward was looking for a "savior" when he find Arkat (at this time a hrestoli knigth)
- Hereward introduced Arkat to Humath (baptizing him?)
- Hereward's hopes turned wrong as Arkat became a Troll (here the story differs from Real World)
- A dishearted Hereward arrives in Castle Blue and "sell" there the idea that a "ideal" leader is still possible
- Much later, Karmanos find some wisdom in the Hereward's teachings to Charmain (and probably in other things too) and by boomerang's effect, Hereward appeared to Karmanos's followers as an prophetic herald of Karmanos.

This story has the advantage to put Herw'Ard firmly in the Carmanian pantheon, at a tiny position but a quite strong one ("How could you disapprove Herw'Ard when he promised us the coming of Karmanos").

3. Now I need more fuel for my brain... (for the moment I didn't find anything on the following questions in my quest, but you probably know the facts, so please share them with me):
- How Hereward died and/or went to apostheosis? (if unknown, John the Baptist's end could give some possibilities... or not)
- Where he is from ? (I would said from Ralios because he was following Humath, but was Humath only the ralian god of death at this time? Anyway to meet Arkat he would have to be from the West.. mhumm I need to check some official facts on Arkat's saga here).

Arctic Fox sounds good for Hereward (Anaxial's p85)
to be studied yes.

About Death animals & Symbols

General aspect, symbolism, and IRL analogies
Maybe Humakt uses these beasties as scouts? Can we assign one per sense? Raven uses eyes, Wolf uses scent. What for hearing, touch, and taste? The latter sounds trollish to me.
This is perhaps too much systematic?

There is analogies with Odin (two ravens, two wolves).
Mars had the wolf a symbol animal. Just checking very fast in a symbol dictionary, I got: the vision of a wolf before a battle was a blessing from Mars for the romans...

About Sword
In areas where Humakt has severed his relationship with the storm, allied spirits appear in swords (then perhaps typically Carmania)
also a good idea: and that applies to most Orlanthi areas, too.

About Skull
IRL: Bones usually goes with the idea of permanance of the dead thus resurrection.
=> Ram skull has given Atyar severed head brought back to life...

About Valkyries
If we follow the Odin-Humakt idea, we could also pick up Odin's daughters, the Valkyries, and the fact that they're the same people as swan-maidens.
But Odin has a fertilty aspect (Father of the world) that sounds more Orlanth than Humakt. Has Humakt Daughters? Yes, oddly enough, he does, according to some myths. Babeester Gor.

About Raven
Apollo has cursed the white raven and turned it black.
Athena discarded the too talkative Raven for Owl who took the wisdom symbol from him.
Raven has the bad reputation to feed on dead corpses to have noisy babies that he doesn't feed enough and to be a thief.
Hugi (thought) and Munin (memory) are Odin's scouts.
The raven and wolf links with Humakt are probably due to him being based on Odin, who had two ravens and two wolves. Huginn is Thought, and Muninn is Memory, and Odin sends these two birds off around the world at daybreak, to bring him the daily news. Sounds a lot like the Legion having "Raven" as the title for the head of intelligence.
+ See North American Indians mythologies to be checked
Did you realise why Raven is linked to Trickster? Influence from the Native American legends of ravens.
Yep, Raven gave fire to men...

Glorantha Digest's interesting speculations:
And the most interesting one (in fact the full conversation is strange because all points of views are possible and compatible, aah! experts are all the same whatever the topic)

But Jane went further :-)
Raven was a mythological guide to Death, Raven is also a form for the Trickster in Prax and Pent
Ah, this bit I like a lot!
Raven is a bird (air animal) that why ravens may become allied spirits in Ralios where Humath is still a storm god
Good idea.
Question: Raven = Eurmal? Yes, no, sometime, depending on areas?
Often. Sometimes. The way I see it, Eurmal is Humakt's Other. As part of his quests, Humakt cut off his cowardice, his lust, etc, etc: and those parts reformed to become Eurmal. Very few Humakti are willing to acknowledge this.

As Humakt was questing for the scattered bits of Death, Eurmal was leading him.
As Humakt was progressing from an ex-storm god of War to the mythological arch-holder of Death, Eurmal was growing from a small annoying Imp to the cosmological aberration able to disturb the Great Compromise.
In fact while Humakt was purifying himself by severing is "sinful" aspects, Eurmal could have been feeding upon these severed parts of humakt thus making him very willing to guide Humakt again and again as both were growing in powers and godly potential.
Yes! And this is one reason why Humakt is unwilling to kill Eurmal (killing oneself can be done, but it carries a lot of significance), and unwilling to punish or blame him for what he knows are in fact his own faults.
I feel this hypothesis as full of gaming/HQuesting potential :-)))
If very few Humakti acknowledge this, then Abul should ignores it totally. Yes, it's an extremely deep secret. I doubt if any of the Legion understand it, not even Illig.

other stuff:
In the computer game "King of Dragon Pass", one of the magic items is Humakt's Raven Banner.

In the Quivin mountains (in Kheldon lands), lives Ternveka the White Raven, on the mountain that bears his name. We decided a while back that he's associated with the Rigsdal subcult of Humakt. (He was also the head of one side of the Corvid Wars.)

There's a ballad about Humakti ravens.

In this game, Landros (ex-PC) has a raven.

Even if we keep the rule of Ralian allied spirits different from manirian ones for subtle religious reasons, Raven will stay as a big humakti symbol as any scavanger and we know why specially Raven (because of Eurmal)

About Wolf
Odin's wolves were Geri and Freki, whose names meant 'The Ravener' and 'The Glutton' respectively.
(how funny is english language, ravenous for a wolf sounds like Raven-like to my ears...)

Most places, wolves are associated with the Telmori.

I feel more and more that we need to enquire more on the wolf aspect. Sun-Killer, mercenary to death rune holders... like the idea that before Talor's curse, Telmori had secret link with an honorable death.
And Telmori abound in Carmanian area... so near to the Kartolin Pass. Wolves seems quite present in the area (see the beginning of Nick Brooke's Anabasis)

if Raven could be the scout aspect, Wolf is certainly the mercenary aspect because he is linked with other "death" gods even Vivamort (as vampire can turn to wolf).

About Vulture

About Bat
Interesting link:

About Owl-Lions
Owl-lions (Anaxial's p25, Carmanian, though they like ambushes!)
Here is something typical carmanian... I will dig here soon.
Now as Owl-Lion is an hybride, i would see this beast as a totem of an hybrid cult, typically carmanian but not Hum'akt after all.

About badger
There's a story somewhere about Humakt and the badger...

Badger Hunshen are nasty and quite berseck-like (cf. MRQ Fronela)

About Carmania and dualistic religion

Moved on FreeCarmania
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